Should I use auto-friend-adders?

Jul 24, 2008

I get this question pretty much every time I go and speak somewhere. It’s generally about MySpace, but it also relates to anything like the automated friend adders, chat bots, scripts and automatic human being replacements in social networks.

Essentially this is about making decisions about the kind of conversations you want to be involved in.

I’m sure you can already guess that my answer to the title question is a resounding “No” - but this is not about making you do all the hard work so that you have to reap the benefit. Believe me - this is not my serious work ethic talking here.

I’m a deeply lazy individual.

A bit like the tortoise and the hare
While it might seem that using an auto-friend adder is like strapping a jet propulsion system onto your online social networking system - chances are it’s not going to help you win the race.

Tools that can seem to get you ahead really quickly have the downside of exponentially diminishing the quality of that engagement, and the overall effect thereof.

But that’s not to say you have to set aside an hour a night to add ten friends at a time for the rest of your life, plodding away adding genuine contacts on a slow, incremental basis. It’s also possible to make serious headway quickly using this approach.

Let me tell you a story. And there are no anthropomorphic animals in it.

The Street Evangelist and the Neighbour who Bakes
Two churchgoers want a lot of people to come to their church meeting. They both enjoy their church, but they’re also really passionate about it, and what’s more - they think it’s really important.

One of them stands on a box in a busy intersection and shouts at people.

The other bakes a cake and knocks on the neighbour’s door.

Now the obvious problem is one of scale. Both approaches are hindered by the physical constraints of the world. One has machinery that will allow for a message to get out to hundreds or even thousands of people at a time. The other has a cake.

If you want to shout at more people, one way is to get a bigger megaphone. The logic at work there is that the more people hear your message, the more chance you have of connecting with someone that will want to come to your church meeting.

The other approach, you’ll recall, is to pop over to the new neighbours with a cake you made. You have a chat, and they eat your cake. They get to know you as nice people, and you invite them along to your church. They’re new in town and you seem nice, so they come along.

You can’t shout through a cake
Now obviously, the number of people who hear your message in the first approach is much greater. The number of people who will come to your church because you made a cake is very, very small.

But here’s the thing: the people who came because of what started with a cake will likely come in the first place - then they’ll stay, they’ll find that it’s a community they fit into - and chances are they’ll invite their own friends next time they’re around for dinner.

Especially if your church holds a bake-a-cake, invite a friend event.

Because the friends of your neighbours have friends too, and before long, they’re making friends, inviting friends and being part of a community.

It’s not so much that there was cake (although cake, it has to be said, is very good), but it’s a lot to do with the fact that you didn’t start out by shouting at them through a megaphone about what a miserable time they were going to have down below upon their imminent demise.

It’s not really about cake
I’m sure we can agree that cake is, indeed, a wonderful thing. But this is, of course, an imperfect metaphor. We can’t yet email each other cake. Nor beer, sadly.

But the approach to the conversation is the same. Rather than try and accumulate as many hits on people as you possibly can through the use of obvious and much hated communication methodologies such as megaphones and auto-adders, go for quality of connection.

It might seem like one at a time while you’re doing it - but the power of a recommendation by a trusted friend is an amazing thing. Getting people to bring their friends and build their communities with respect to your music builds exponentially.

Cakes are louder than megaphones
The trouble with a megaphone is that no matter how big it is, sooner or later the sound decays and reaches no further. A softly spoken word by a trusted friend who is having a good experience not only continues, but multiplies upon every connection.

So, perhaps one way to interpret this parallel of the street shouter and the cake baker is to say that maybe building a street team of trusted individuals who are tapped into powerful networks, and enabling and rewarding them to evangelise in quiet, enthusiastic tones on your behalf is better than gathering as many random MySpace accounts as you can find and spamming them with ‘HI! WE’RE A BAND! ADD US AS FRIENDS NOW!’

The other, more literal way to interpret this would be to offer free cake on your MySpace profile to anyone who ‘friends’ you - but I wouldn’t recommend it. Like I said - imperfect metaphor.

But you get the picture (and no, I won’t come to your church meeting, no matter how good your cake is).

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56 Comments, Comment or Ping

Milton

Validation feels good, even if it only comes around in small amounts in a virtually infinite environment like the Internet.

I was actually appalled when I learned of the auto-adders (and a little humiliated that I had not heard of them sooner). I have said many times at many places across the web that I do not believe the music I am making is 100% yet…but I have gained some legitimate momentum and a “valid” fan base (however small it may be at this time).

It feels much better looking at the almost 1400 (and at least 1000 that are NOT other “bands”) that populate my “friends” list on Myspace knowing that they came because they legitimately like what I am doing. It also feels legitimately good to see the over 10,000 page hits and almost 8000 plays. Much better than if I were looking at 500,000 hits that I knew were not legit.

I don’t know how much difference this makes to any of the other artists out there but it matters to me. I like to think I have earned my place and more importantly learned my place (very much so recently…shit, I just can’t keep up with some of the conversations I try to engage in).

The important thing is that I DO learn from each engagement and that I love / enjoy the music that I am making. Better and better only follows these experiences.

http://www.myspace.com/theultrameekoxymoron

If any of you visit and you like it that’s great and if you don’t I will continue on doing what I do. (And learning more and more every day).

Thanks for this post Andrew. As I mentioned above; validation feels good.

Jul 25th, 2008
Gavroche

Dubber, I think you hit the nail on the head here.

When a friend of mine showed me the auto friend adder/commenter, I was pretty impressed and intrigued. Then, he showed me the robot he has which gets his play counts up — as much as 2000 plays a day — I was mad that I hadn’t discovered this sooner. His logic was simple — he wasn’t trying to cultivate a fan base, but he was trying to get maximum value for the hiphop beats he was making. The more plays/friends, the more some random dude in Nebraska would pay for his beats.

But, after thinking about it, I am glad I didn’t opt for auto friend adder. I don’t make beats to sell for others to use, I make the instrumental so I can sing my lyrics over it. So, I don’t care how much my beats sell for, I want to be able to cultivate a fanbase and monetize my finished work.

If you try to personally engage every friend you make on myspace, your fans will be more loyal. Instead of casting a wide net, get 100 loyal fans, and have them infect their friends with your music. Be active and communicative through your digital hubs. Offer fans more than just your song, which is getting harder and harder to sell. Give them blogs, bios, pics, videos, etc. Let them remix your songs and get involved. Have them experience your music and really connect with it, and they’ll be fans for ever. Use auto friend adder, and they wont even look at your bulletins.

Jul 25th, 2008
Gavroche

Since we’re on the topic of fan engagement…would any musicians be willing to take a survey I’ve prepared? It investigates how musicians collaborate on music, engage fans, and profit from their works. There are only 11 questions, so it should only take a minute; first 100 people get a free tshirt! Thanks:) http://tinyurl.com/5ce33d

Jul 25th, 2008
Milton

@GAV

OK, I did the survey and was happy to contribute.

Good to hear that there are other artists who appreciate legitimate listeners.

Jul 25th, 2008
Gavroche

Definitely. As you say, validation feels good!

Thanks for taking the survey, it’s much appreciated.

Jul 25th, 2008
Peter Blue

For a long time I wasn’t aware that bands use robots and scripts on myspace. I was so naive to think that all the huge numbers of friends were just a natural fan activity. Yes, I’m naive at times. Just a few month ago I realized what’s really happening, when a person who has an artist consulting business wrote in her newsletter how she works with friends adder bots.
We don’t use them. It simply does not feel good. In fact it smells bad.
Does anybody remember the former mp3.com from 2000 - 2001?
Gaming was happening then and finally destroyed the whole site, that was paying artists for plays.
I trust in the quality of our music. And our number of genuine friends and fans grows constantly.

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

I have to completely disagree with everything everyone has said here.

As a tool, a friend adder can be used well, and in conjunction with other forms of communication.

You’ve just started making music, the only people who know about it are your friends and the initial spread of word of mouth is going to be fairly limited.

I recommend setting up on myspace, and adding only real people (not bands) who are already friends with an artist of a similar nature to yourself. Include a message with this add explaining why you added them and what you do. Ask them what they think.

The key thing is when people comment/message you back - reply!

Reply to everyone and everything.. if you do this every day it becomes manageable. In your responses you should encourage further discussion and then encourage these new ‘fans’ to engage of word of mouth.

You’ll find that you tend to get the same kind of questions/responses coming back at you, so keep a stockpile of informative and well thought out comments that you can copy/paste in response, tweaking for the individual message.

You can comment people who haven’t spoken to you before and are sitting in your friends list asking what they think. Comment people when you do something new, and always talk to everyone individually. If someone makes the effort to write to you, write back. Give people something they weren’t expecting - free music? I do.

Once you’ve added circa 4,000 people or so, and if your music is good and relevant to those people you added, it takes care of itself, just keep talking to people and WOM will happen. 4,000 people is a better starting point than your 4 mates.

Adding people randomly with no explanation and never responding to peoples messages is where so many bands go wrong. So much so I do not accept adds from bands. Also, a lot, lot, lot of the bands on myspace suck - so make sure you don’t suck either. That always helps.

I do not think friend adding should be the only strategy you employ, but as a way to get off the ground I don’t think it should be dismissed out of hand. Direct Mail and direct marketing are employed by some of the biggest brands out there, so why should your music be any different?

Dubber, your analogy is wrong.

You can have the megaphone AND give them cake.

I say use it, just use it wisely and in conjunction with other comms channels.

Jul 25th, 2008
Westicle

I don’t use ‘em and I don’t plan on it (though on MySpace my band isn’t close to 1000 friends yet).

99% of our requests are from bands and mostly bands that have absolutely nothing to do with my band. I’m approving all the requests at the moment cos the way I figure it is that some of their friends may see us and like us and it’s the other bands that are doing the hard work for me. When we reach a point where we’ve got enough real friends, fans and associated bands I’m gonna cull the bands that have bugger all to do with us and we will be left with a small but very integral network.

Jul 25th, 2008
Vincent

I agree with what’s been said.

I can only add this: for someone who doesn’t know you, the first thing they’re doing when going to your myspace page is to look at your number of hits, number of plays and how many friends you are.

It’s kind of the same thing they (we) do in a record store. We first look at the top list.

I’m talking about the general public, not the niche market.

Now this is definitely something to have in mind because if you don’t have big numbers, people will think you suck even without listening to your music.

So I’m torn in the middle: I don’t want to cheat with auto-friend-adders but at the same time, you need to be at the same level of other bands that “cheat”. Cheating is too strong, it’s called pr, isn’t it?

Jul 25th, 2008
Westicle

That is a good point Vincent - I hadn’t really thought about it that way before.

However the general public may not use MySpace that much and when I say general public I mean non MySpace users. I’ve got some close friends that wont even look at my band’s MySpace page for various reasons - “I’m not on MySpace so I can’t”, “I can’t work out how to use it” are some of the reasons I’ve been given.

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

Well, Myspace is by far the most popular Social Networking site out there, so you’d be a fool not to be on it, there’s always going to be people who are unfamiliar with it, but really, if you want to hear a band, you can guarantee you’ll find them on myspace.

Also, if you look at this issue in terms of seeing using auto-adders as ‘cheating’ you’re doing it all wrong.

Auto-adding allows you establish a targeted communication channel with potential fans and your music. There is a world beyond myspace and beyond simply adding people, but it’s a good, cost-effective way to get going.

A few hours spent on myspace are far more beneficial to your music than a few hours playing to nobody in your local pub.

Jul 25th, 2008
karen

“Friend adding” robots are definitely not the way for me - I actually enjoy listening to the music of the people who add me - and if I genuinely like it I comment - I also often comment if it’s a local act or people I might meet one day, or have heard of.

I don’t often get to add bands/people myself as my ‘add request’ section is always full of plenty of people to listen to.

The best thing about myspace for me is the ease of listening to the audio streams - the myspace players seem to work for most people - it’s generic, I know what I’m going to get when I visit a myspace page so if I want to check out an act I will often do so via myspace.

Jul 25th, 2008
Vincent

For pro-auto-friend-adders, can you be specific about your results?

Having a lot of friends is one thing but have you converted them in:
- newsletter subscribers?
- CD sales?
- concerts fans?

Also maybe it’d be nice to hear how you do it
- what kind of message do you first send them?
- how do you follow-up?
- which software do you find the most effective?

As I said previously, I’m not anti-adder. I’m just wondering how effective it can be and how you use it!

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

I believe I outlined how I use it, and suggest using it above ^

Answering your other questions is more difficult, because adding people should not be the only strategy you employ, and therefore my results you ask for would not be based solely on the period of time I engaged in adding. Also, I don’t sell CD’s - it’s all free.

Friend Blaster pro, is my tool of choice, it is regularly updated, and I use it to auto comment people who add me and to comment my existing friends en mass.

The tone of voice you adopt when making contact and in the follow up copy should be dependent on your target audience, and their expectations. If you don’t know what that is then you’re fighting a losing battle my friend.

It’s about making conversations; you can’t just add people and leave it at that. These programs let you begin a relationship with potential fans and then the rest is up to you.

I’m sorry Andrew, but I think you’ve got it all wrong.

Jul 25th, 2008
Dubber

No need to apologise for telling me I’m wrong… That’s what the comments section is for! I actually quite like being wrong (almost as much as I like being right) because I learn a lot when the opposite case is explained to me, and I’m more than happy to weigh the evidence and change my mind.

I think you’re right in that there are ways to use friend adders that aren’t completely reprehensible, just as there are ways to send unsolicited emails that are tolerable - if not entirely welcome. But auto-adding friends occupies the same territory as spam, conceptually speaking. It’s not a human interaction, but a scattershot approach in the hopes that something would connect.

For selling or promoting, I prefer talking with someone to shouting at a crowd - but I’m sure things have been sold by shouting at crowds too. This is not a ‘robot friend adders = evil / genuine personal communication = good’ debate, really…

Jul 25th, 2008
Atul Rana

“A few hours spent on myspace are far more beneficial to your music than a few hours playing to nobody in your local pub.”

This is probably quite true and there is a whole art to online internet marketing and targeting. Personally I don’t use any bots or the likes in marketing my band but I can see very good reasoning in -I have clones-.

Bots could be a good way of targeting which type of people would like your music and then targeting the ones that respond. One could also argue that mass mailshots are a bit like shouting on a megaphone too. But I know from experience of recieving mail merged mail outs on the internet that these type of things work pretty well if done in a smart and targeted manner.

Jul 25th, 2008
audiot

i’d say you’re both right. and vincent as well. cheat ‘em first and then make it up with a cake
Andrew’s absolutely right with his point that a ‘cold’ relationship is no relationship. but if you connect with somebody, he/she will even work for you. the quality of a relationship is the main aspect here. it’s the most important thing.
but on the other hand Mr. Clones is absolutely correct as well. starters need a starting point first and i think it’s a good idea using adders to know who you could adress in the first place. from that point on you all are baking cake. it’s all about caring and building quality relationships but you need to start somewhere…

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

I was wondering when the concept of spam was going to be raised.

You need to be open when you contact people in explaining why you are doing it, how you found them, and why you think they will like you. If you make good quality music you should not feel ashamed about putting your music out there and into the faces of the people who are likely to be into it.

Make sure it’s targeting the right people, and presented in the right way and you will find that many people are grateful for it. You brought the music they love - to them. It’s not the same as spam, I’m not selling you anything, I am giving you what you want.

The problem lie with a) bands that are rubbish doing this, b) bands sending out adds to people who quite clearly will not like their stuff, c) bands adding people and never ever speaking to them. This is what causes some people to be turned off by the idea.

I’m afraid Andrew, it is a human interaction. I wrote the copy in the message, I chose who to send it to, and when people respond, I write back. That’s like saying if you send an email to more than one person it’s Spam. After all, it’s a machine sending it….

A typical DM campaign with a response rate of 8% or more is hailed as a success, wheras a myspace adding session can yeild returns of somewhere in the region of 50% or more and with circa 50% of these people becoming engaged and responsive.

Make good, original music that people want to hear. Target the people you know will like it. Communicate with them regularly. Job done.

Jul 25th, 2008
Dubber

Yep - my beef with auto-friend adders is the indiscriminate use of mindless robots, crawling through the network adding anyone that fits a particular profile.

It sounds like you’re using this in a very clever and personal manner, for which you should be congratulated. My purpose here is to warn artists off the worst excesses of friend-adding for the sheer weight of numbers.

I suspect that most people using friend adders aren’t quite so reserved and considered.

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

Yes, you’re absolutely right, I think most artists that engage in this practice do it without really considering why they are doing it, and what the end goal of the process is. Having lots of myspace friends is not an achievement.

To say that using these programs is a bad idea though is wrong. If you’re an artist already on this site, then you know better than most how to go about conducting your business, and just like building a website, there are right and wrong ways to go about using an adder.

Jul 25th, 2008
Gavroche

Btw, everybody knows that you can get kicked off of Myspace if they figure out you’re using autofriend adder or other bots?

@Clones

You’re right, that doing auto friend adder would help if you actually contacted your new friends. Then, you’re just using the robot to open the door, after which you actually reach out and have a conversation with your fans. But, I would say that 99% of bands don’t do this.If you get 2500 new friends, how are you going to talk to all of them? While have premade text you can copy/paste is fine, you don’t want to be commenting the same thing on all of their profiles. I guess you could use auto comment for this…

You’re absolutely right that high myspace play counts can act to validate you so that people actually listen to your music when they get to your page. But, maybe auto friend adder isn’t the best way to do this. Go out and play some shows, comment on blogs to get exposure, and get on some podcasts (like Hypebot’s).

Jul 25th, 2008
I Have Clones

I’m not going to lie, this stuff is time consuming, even with the help of a bot. But if that’s what cultivating a fanbse takes, that’s what it takes.

I probably spend about 1 hour per day, monday - friday dealing with messages etc. and that time investment, as you say, seperates me from 99% of other bands that do not do this. Once I’ve done all that needs done I leave it, and don’t respond to anything until the next day. That’s just simple time management to be honest.

When I said I copy/paste - I did not mean literally carbon copy response for every message, but having a generic answer that I can modify dependent on question saves me time and provides the fan with a better, more informative answer.

I enjoy talking with my fans, it shouldn’t be a chore, jsut as Dubber responds on here, I would hope he doesn’t groan at the thought of another comment thread!

Jul 25th, 2008
Gavroche

@Clones

You’re right that the hour per day you spend separates you from the other bands on myspace. Well done!

At the end of the day, whatever works for you to cultivate a fan base is what you should do!

Jul 25th, 2008
Blaise Alleyne

So obvious and simple (friend adders are bad; real connections are good), but you explain it in such a brilliant and accessible way. I’m totally using your street corner / cake example from now on (and mentioning your name/blog every time I do ).

ps I think you just baked me a virtual cake…

Jul 26th, 2008
brian

In my experience, using a friend-adder has done nothing to increase the amount of real listeners for my music. There’s no added benefit to having more friends if I have no real interactions with them.

On the other hand, I think other automated programs that let you message users en masse can really save a lot of time, just as an email fan list might. So not all forms of automation are bad, in my opinion.

Great discussion here!

Jul 28th, 2008
karen

here’s a thing - i recently missed out on an industry showcase gig because

“….while your application was very strong, it was decided that some others were stronger in the area of audience development (MySpace/LastFM etc, etc)………”

perhaps if i befriended those robots………

Jul 28th, 2008
James Pew

Excellent discussion here. Reading through the comments I swayed back and forth between the pro and anti bot camps. I Have Clones makes a compelling argument. He seems to have struck a balance between efficiency and engagement. However, I feel strongly about the 1,000 true fans model - important point being TRUE fans. If using a robot helps get your music heard by a group of potential fans than so be it. But the important question to ask is weather any of the 4,000 or so robot acquired friends will ever become the true fan. Maybe in I Have Clones’s case some will, if he truly does follow up and engage with them in a meaningful way. I Have Clones also seems to understand that friend adding is only one small part of the promotional equation. I don’t think robot adders is something I will encourage the artists I work with to use - that being said, I do see the potential for artists who are starting from ground zero, or close to it, and if they do go the robot way, I recommend leaving the bots behind, and opting for authentic engagement, once a couple thousand friends have been obtained.

Jul 29th, 2008
radio_lounge

In the end, no matter whether your a musician, plumber, doctor..whatever. It’s about realtionships. I might mail out a thousand direct mail pieces (my hypothetical equivalent of robot adders) and may not gain any more business than if I happen to have a one on one conversation with a person in need of my services (or looking for new music). Quantity vs’ quality. Who will be there for me thick and thin. While it can be superficially great to have a zillion “friends” (which after a long conversation with a self proclaimed social media spammer, I learned about how little value those can be sometimes), you ultimately want fans for life.

Jul 30th, 2008
I Have Clones

I thought I’d wade back in here just to say that I don’t believe it’s all a case of ‘quantity vs. quality’ as the man above me asserts.

You can automate the process of making a large quantity of contacts, and then spend some time establishing a quality relationship - it’s not black and white, and it is easy to do it wrong, but it’s also not rocket science.

Seriously, I look through some posters pages, and they do not appear to have quantity or quality connections, nor provide the facilities for quality connections to occur or have anything resembling an aesthetically pleasing or content rich page… the list could go on.

In the spirit of automation is a good thing ‘hellotxt.com’ allows me to update all my social networks at once, through the click of a button - very time saving I find!

Jul 30th, 2008
Blaise Alleyne

I Have Clones,

Your example is quite unrelated from the topic. Nobody is complaining about automation for updating your own content, I use ping.fm all the time. But if you consider your ‘friends’ content, well, there’s the root of the problem.

Friend adders aren’t about updating all your profiles at once, saving time through automating the task of updating duplicate content. Friend adders start off building relationships in an impersonal, unhuman way, by treating people as input to a software program.

Good luck with that.

Jul 30th, 2008
Blaise Alleyne

James,

I agree for the most part, but I think you’re also missing one thing.

“But the important question to ask is weather any of the 4,000 or so robot acquired friends will ever become the true fan. Maybe…”

Sure, maybe you can convert some. What about the other people you piss off? It’s not only a question of “will there actually be any positive consequences?” but “what about the negative consequences?” For every true fan converted from spamming people, how many others will the artist have angered?

I only have two people blocked on Facebook. One of them is an artist who kept sending me unsolicited emails about his music.

Spamming people reflects badly on an artist. That needs to be considered.

Jul 30th, 2008
I Have Clones

I honestly don’t feel the need to labour my point any more. If you don’t want to use a friend adder that’s your call - and fair enough.

I’ve outlined why I think friend adders are good, how to use them, and how not to use them. I’ve also pointed out that they are useful in opening targeted communications channels with potential fans, en masse, but it is not a strategy to success if that’s all you do.

You don’t have to do what I say, or understand it, but if you don’t then I think you’re missing a trick.

To respond to the post above - what?

I do not treat my ‘friends’ as content - that doesn’t even make sense.

I do not have a problem, and there is no root to it. In fact I am enjoying implementing my strategy and shall continue to do so. I also do not need your sarcastic wishes of good luck thank you very much.

Maybe I am all wrong though; as a visitor to your site I find myself utterly confused by the ridiculous IA you have created. But hey it must just be me, after all 39 people have managed to listen to the songs on your myspace page so far!

Good luck with that my friend.

Jul 30th, 2008
Blaise Alleyne

I Have Clones,

Yeah, I was out of line there. Sorry. My tone was uncalled for. I picked up something in your comment, which I think is important, but I didn’t go back and re-read your previous comments before employing the sarcasm.

I don’t think I actually disagree with you much. If you can employ automation in a way that isn’t spammy, go right ahead.

What I was trying to pick up on was a general notion… a lot of people who aren’t so conscious of their use of friend adders tend to basically view friends as ‘content’ - a friend count for their profile. That’s what matters most, rather than the connection their making with others.

My mistake in associated the sentiment with I Have Clones.

Jul 30th, 2008
karen

@ Clones

Is your song play count generated by a robot too? or are those actual plays?

great tunes by the way - nice blend of influences

k

Jul 31st, 2008
I Have Clones

@ Karen - Thank you, and no, that IS a stupid idea.

Although probably a couple a day are me playing them to myself, just cos I like them!

=)

Aug 1st, 2008
karen

@clones

hey that’s really great - congratulations - if using robots can help get 400+ people per day ( on the couple of days i went to your page in the equivalent of UK time zone evening) to listen to your tunes - and generate so many comments from people who are obviously genuinely interested in what you are doing and not bulk commenting - then I should definately try it!

however it may be that certain target markets/age groups respond better which could be a factor in your success at this, rather than a blanket ‘one tool fixes all’

still - worth a try, I want to get my music to more ears

Aug 1st, 2008
BotReviews

Wow, what a great discussion! I have to admit I was browsing for forums that are discussing bots and friend-adders because I have a website designed for people that are seeking them, but I found myself very interested in the article and the entire discussion that followed.

It was interesting to see the perspective of bands or artists who really don’t like bots and understandable why many would despise them when they are misused. For one thing, mass-messaging thousands of people without getting VERY specific in your search criteria is a huge waste of time and will most likely serve to just annoy people. For another thing, it is very important once you have made new contacts and added those friends to do as I Have Clones suggested and spend some time every day making sure to keep up the relationship by answering messages and keeping up with your conversations.

When you just use friend-adders blindly and don’t follow up, they are a waste of your time and other people’s time. When you use them correctly, it’s an excellent way to make first contact with people who may be interested.

IF you decide that friend-adders or bots might benefit you, I just wanted to mention my website which is entirely dedicated to helping people find a friend-adder that actually works, stays supported and is not a scam. My site is completely free and allows users to post their reviews and ratings for different friend-adders, and also post video demos of them so people can get a good idea of how different ones work before they spend money.

If you’d like to check it out, it’s at BotReviews.Com

Thanks for reading this, and thanks for the great discussion! I had already included on my main page a note that we don’t support spam and that sending friend-requests carelessly is not worthwhile, but perhaps I will make a more detailed article about that based on this article and discussion. Anyway, thanks and good luck everyone!

Aug 1st, 2008
brian

Wow this discussion has been quite heated! Just wanted to write a note about how I’ve recently had some great experiences reconnecting with friends and listeners with Facebook, MANUALLY. Whereas a lot of the times on Myspace I use a bot to send out mass messages, with Facebook I’ve been taking the time to write people individually, see what they’ve been up to, and actually engage my thinking towards them. And what I’m struck by is just how different the two experiences are. For one, writing these personalized messages made me feel a lot of gratitude for having these great people in my life, and two, the usability of Facebook encourages this sort of thing. I think I’ve resorted to using bots on Myspace because I just hate everything about their interface. By using a bot, I don’t even have to ever SEE a myspace page. With Facebook, it’s been the opposite. I can see what my friends / listeners are up to, I can easily and quickly write them notes, and with great third-party apps like iLike, I can send them songs, dedications, and other little tidbits about my music. It encourages human interaction because it’s EASY. I love it. I realize this post was primarily about friend adders, but the idea is connecting with real people…

Aug 1st, 2008
Justin Boland

Autobots have been invaluable for us.

The key is words — keywords, specifically, based on an understanding of the subculture you’re trying to access. We’re fortunate enough to have some fairly unique niche content and a target audience that doesn’t get exposed to a lot of hip hop.

I would agree that the cake is the core component, though. If you can’t offer something valuable, you’re wasting everyone’s time…I guess, as per usual, I walk out of a binary argument thinking both sides are right.

Andrew, this Questions series is beautifully necessary — thank you for all the work you’re putting in.

Aug 2nd, 2008
Matt@Kurb

Damn, I have to be away when this discussion drops!

I guess I would come into this pretty much exactly where “I have clones” is. I’m glad to see Justin come out on it as well because I believe intelligent people can use these tools intelligently.

A large but decreasing part of my work is helping artists conduct automated campaigns. In 2006 I started “spamming the ass out of myspace and it was a good time. Captcha bypass, no msplinks - sweet mother google, the backlinks. But if you were on Myspace this time last year you would recognise that it was reduced to a playground for some pretty malignant spammers.

Now, I won’t conduct an automated campaign unless it’s promoting a tangible benefit. A free thing. More so I advocate that each campaign must be progressively tangibly beneficial to a hyper targeted audience. Working on refining those strategies for artists encapsulates more of my focus now then playing the numbers game.

Here’s my imperfect metaphor, because when I got into this stuff my biz was just doing posters and flyers for gigs.

You can run round town putting posters up everywhere. People are going to see them. Some people aren’t going to like it, they’re not going to like you using others spaces for your message. Apparently it contravenes a by law but you don’t see the council doing that much about it.

A lot of people are going to see the posters round town. If no one gets what your band is about, then guess what? They don’t care, they won’t spare another thought. Yeah, they know about the gig. But no, they’re not coming.

But if you’re building a multi channel, multi media presence, you may be creating yet another in a series of potential cues to engage a new “true fan” or whatever. “Hey that band that does that song is having a gig/has a myspace . . . we should check it out . . . see if it’s any good . . . ”

I think if you’re in the music business, and you’re building something to be viable, you manage your options carefully. Often you take the cheap options because it’s all you can afford. You do posters, because you can’t afford radio, let alone a publicist. When you build viability, as a content provider and performer or whatever, you outsource professional experience and support.

As for play increasers, it’s a simple matter of social proof. Either users read your increased plays as social proof of your popularity and become more favourable to engagement, or they are smart enough to know you’re using a script. And it’s not that flattering.

Aug 4th, 2008
I Have Clones

The thing I worry about is that new users to this site, or readers of the ‘100 questions’ will just read Dubbers post and take it as gospel.

Obviously people aren’t going to sift through a massive comment thread on each post and on pretty much every other topic I think Dubber’s been spot on - just not on this one.

The general message of Andrews post is ‘friend adders are a no-no’ whereas I’d hope that through thrashing out the issues on here we can all agree that in fact they can be useful, but there are ways, and ways not to use them, that are quite specific.

I feel a post explaining this and included in the ‘100 questions’ would be of better use to everyone.

Provoking discussion is great - but then providing your side and your answer only in ‘100 questions’ is misleading.

Aug 4th, 2008
Dubber

You’ll be pleased to note, then, that although the blog posts will remain, the 100 Questions will be amended and the comments taken into consideration when it comes to assembling the book version of this series.

The 100 Questions are taking significantly longer than I originally anticipated - for a very good reason. Posts like this one are generating responses and feedback. The original idea was ‘Here are some questions I get asked a lot, and here is how I usually respond’ - not ‘here’s the gospel truth about something’ - and often in seminars, just as here, the answers provoke as much discussion.

This topic, along with a few others, will be finessed when it comes to the ‘finished product’. Think of the blog posts (and the spoken answers to questions if you encounter me at a seminar) as ‘thinking out loud’ rather than ‘the fact of the matter’. I’m always happy to have my perspective changed.

However, I would say that the hypothetical new readers you talk about, if they are new to this and looking for a quick yes or no - I’d far rather they took a ‘no’ away. Then, if they read the insightful commentary you guys have provided, they can expand that to a ‘No.. except…”.

The default should, I think, still be ‘don’t use auto friend adders UNLESS…’ rather than ‘go ahead and use auto friend adders - and by the way, here’s how to not be a spammer’.

I disagree with very little that’s been said here in the comments - but I think using auto-adders wisely tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

Thanks, everyone, for such great discussion.

Aug 4th, 2008
Justin Boland

“The thing I worry about is that new users to this site, or readers of the ‘100 questions’ will just read Dubbers post and take it as gospel.”

Given the sheer scale of the competitive field, I’m touched by your concern for your fellow artists.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind having most of the competition led astray. Perhaps I should start a really slick looking music 2.0 site and post articles about how giving away free music is dangerously stupid, and online promotions are just a fad.

Unfortunately, despite the Karl Rove mentality, my Buddha nature always wins. I reckon it’s time to start up Audible Hype again.

Aug 4th, 2008
I Have Clones

Haha, believe me, I’m quite a long way off being a selfless individual!

To respond though - I think the more musicians that make quality music, and promote it and do all they can themselves the better. That way the approach becomes more acceptable with the traditional music structures and we can do away with the need for labels altogether.

Something that is really pi**ing me off lately is touring.

You simply cannot get on to a good tour unless you’re on the books of one of the big agents, and you can’t get on their books unless you’re on a label - which is ridiculous. You may even have more fans than the band on the label, pull a bigger crowd, and still not get on!

In one instance the headline band said they’d love for me to play - but it’s out of their hands. Some guy in an office is choosing the supports. and he has to pick the bands from a certain promoter.

I know it’s a bit off topic for this post - but seriously - if you want to tour with established acts - you need to be signed, and I don’t want to be!

So yeah, back to the reply.. more bands - DIY! That way they’ll have no choice but to use us!

Aug 4th, 2008
Atul Rana

I feel violated….

“Some real person” just added me as a friend on Facebook, his message of friendship was “We have similar music tastes etc” . He seemed like a musician (he had a guitar in his hands) so I added him as I like to meet musicians, it’s always good.

And he then posted a message to me that had that personal touch in language terms, except for he never mentioned my name at any point in person. He asked me to “check his Facebook page out” and I did, and I loved their music! They had a lot of fans too and I loved their music. Infact so much that I excitedly wanted to write back to him.

And guess what……..I can’t write to him…it’s seemingly a fake profile and it’s not a proper full friend add. Two days later the profile no longer exists. I go back to the Facebook page and lo and behold the number of fans has suddenly jumped up.

I hate these type of auto adders, they violate some basic principles of civility, you will burn in hell.

Aug 5th, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

I just want to chime in to say that “I have clones” is absolutely right. The particular friend adder I use doesn’t add random people in any way. It works from a list of IDs that you generate by extracting from certain pages.

Before I used them, I added people manually, spending a long time weeding through all of the profiles that didn’t accept band requests or were set to private… dealing with my browser continually slowing to an almost stop freezing up from insanely over done personal profiles, causing me to lose all of the open tabs of correspondance… And at the end of the day, I was manually doing the same exact thing that the friend adder will do for me.

I write EVERYONE back… even ones that smell of spam themselves. I listen to every single friend request that is a band and give honest and friendly positive feedback (unless it’s REALLY bad…then I just say hello). I have a direct line of communication with so many people on a day to day basis, many of which originated from… you guessed it… an auto friend adder request…even some which have become very good cyber buddies…and … the friend requests pour in… not just from bands, but from people who are genuinely interested in what my band is doing, and eager to get involved with other members of our fanbase.

The problem is not the adders themselves. The one I use, doesn’t go out and find users for me. I still do that on my own, targeted toward people who seem like they might be interested in the first place (derived mostly from the bands that are in the top of most people requesting us)..it just does what I’d (and you should) be doing anyway…which is telling everyone you come in contact with about what you create.

I never leave spam messages as comments…ever. I never command that fans “put us in their top” or “tell their friends about us”… I never leave huge image or ASCII based comments to “get noticed”, and in fact stick to private messaging for most correspondence.

A myspace adder is a tool which can be used in many different ways. It can be used to simply speed up the process of adding people you’d think are interested, or it can be used to spam the crap out of people. I’m sure everyone knows which one will get the right results.

Great lengths are taken to only do requesting sessions that follow the model of getting hte most results. What are the most results? The most personal correspondence, of course.

Simply… I must say. “I have clones” is absolutely right. Just have some bloody sense about it allready. I’d rather take a personable artist who sent me a request from an auto adder any day than someone who manually adds but tries to spam my band’s comments with canned advertising lingo (that’s REALLY what pisses people off… not the simple act of getting a friend request.)

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

One side note I forgot to include.

There is no way to know HOW someone came to send you a friend request. So, how would that get anyone’s goat in it’s self? It’s the lack of care taken in communicating with friends, fans, and other bands that causes frustration… and if not, they wouldn’t have been any happier had you spent an hour looking at their page before shooting off a request (most people don’t allow non friends to send them messages or comment, and rightfully so)

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

And sorry. Again. One more note.

Automating the requests actually free’s up a LOT of time to actually write people. Instead of wasting time in physically clicking the add request function on every single page (along with all of the browser freezing issues and confusing pages with contact tables that don’t line up and all the other myspace customized pleasantries), I now spend just a few minutes on requesting, and almost all of the myspace time I allot to my day in writing people, replying to people, and so on. If anything…a myspace adder has allowed me to FAR INCREASE the level at which I am able to be personable.

To answer the question about results. Yes, there are some results if you are wise about WHO you target towards. Before a gig, I’ll see if the venue/promoter has a myspace page… and snag their list… I’ll send out requests to those people. Guess what. More people show up to the show. I don’t know if THAT is what makes it happen in all cases, as that is only one method of promotion used of many, but I have had plenty of people coming up to me after shows introducing themselves as someone from myspace that were requested by our band. I haven’t gotten anyone pissed off about it yet. Not a one.

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

Atul Rana:

Don’t feel violated at all. You wouldn’t have resided on the “to add” list had you not seemed like someone who would enjoy it. At least not with my band (I can’t speak for other people of course). Each and every person we add is held in the highest regard, and we always have every intention in talking and befriending (REAL friend… not myspace) anyone who wants to bite. All a friend adder is, is a way of automating the physical act of sending a friend request. In other words, just because a piece of software has helped to quicken the process a bit, doesn’t mean that you are any less important to the success of whatever band which is sharing their work with you. If they are rotten apples, that’s just what personality they have, but don’t damn the tool, just because some people abuse it. These impersonal people would act the same way to you had you come up to them to chat at a show. Just move on, because if they don’t care about their fans, friends, or other bands, they aren’t worth YOUR time or money, or anyone else’s for that matter. Music is community.

So… here is someone who both uses a myspace adder, AND will become your friend if welcomed. At least I’m not spending all the time I could be writing you (or whoever) manually doing everything.

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

And let me add: I don’t actually use the “auto-message”, or “auto-comment” features. No thanks. I want to actually build relationships with people… but it would be impossible to spread out as much without a massive budget manually (with friend requests)

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

Dubber. Here’s a question. Is placing an Ad in a music magazine anything resembling human, or personal, interaction? It’s just as unsolicited and automatic as a friend request from an “auto friend adder”.

Is radio play personal or human? They didn’t necessarily ASK to hear your band on that station, mere just willed to “listen to the station,” and in most cases have never even talked personally with the person responsible for playing the song, let alone the people listening.

How about postering? How personal is that? How many unsolicited views are perpetrated by putting one single poster on a street corner? The only way to personalize that process would be to rig a wireless walkie-talkie system to every poster, that goes back to your place of residence.

My point is this. Sometimes, you have to get through the initial “this is [band name here] as quickly as poss. so that you CAN afford the time to be personal… unless you have a very large promotions budget/staff… then why would you need to send out friend requests to anyone in the first place?

Leaving pre-designed “ad copy” style comments, even to those who request you is more spam than speeding up the requesting process with the help of software.

Aug 23rd, 2008
Blaise Alleyne

@ I Halve Gnomes

Magazine advertisements, radio ads and posters aren’t supposed to be personal. Creating a friendship is.

( Not that I disagree with all your other comments, I realize “each and every person [you] add is held in the highest regard…” I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I just think those were bad examples. )

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Halve Gnomes

My point is this. There is nothing wrong with the method of delivery, just how that method is used or abused. If someone uses an auto friend adder to spam people, much in the way described (fake profiles, automated or non-existent messages, and so on) THAT is the problem… someone who is just speeding up the process of physically adding people, much in the way that you would set up a photoshop script to automate a repetitive task that you would be doing with the mouse to save time (that’s all an adder is), is no different really than the traditional hand done way.

There is no lack of communication, if not even more communication as one doesn’t have to spend their time with the act of friend requesting, but rather, with correspondence. The friend request is planting a seed… If the person enjoys the music and accepts, then that line of communication has been opened (and if they deny it, they wouldn’t have been interested anyway), and its up to the artist to either ignore that line of communication, or to use it to build relationships and friendships.

Let me say this: Friend Adders INCREASE the line of communication with people that I am able to have. I have much more relationships that have been made possible, simply by automating the process of clicking on the add to friends button, rather than toiling through the browser killing profiles with flying glittery unicorns bouncing around the page at 200mph, and half transparent foregrounds over busy eye melting backgrounds. If someone can legitimately convince me that there is something ACTUALLY wrong with that, then I’ll listen… but I doubt that is possible. The real problem is musicians who don’t feel the need to connect with their fans, or potential friends.

My analogies were more/less there to bring up the point that almost all strategies to initially inform others about your band are impersonal… not because we like it that way, but because it would be impossible to reach more than a couple of people that way. There is no moral connotations in placing a magazine ad for IT’S initial impersonal nature, but simply because it’s popular to “blame it all on the auto adders”, anyone who automates a friend request, regardless of how they, themselves, handle it afterward, or how those friend requests are generated, is a complete sham, irritating people much in the way of an internet spammer. The difference is… myspace is set up to expand your circle of friends…if you want to stick to just who you know already, go with facebook, but myspace… the entire point is to meet new people, while an emal client is not set up for the purpose of getting emails from people that you don’t know (in fact that pisses people off, myself included) Let’s just say: I haven’t had a single person who has been in correspondence with me have a problem with hearing from my band. Why? Because I send only to those who seem already interested in the kind of thing we do, and I handle it with care, politeness, and sincerity to build a relationship. Those who aren’t interested have a deny button to click, and they can enjoy whatever other music that they enjoy, while those who are interested in what my band are doing can become part of our ever growing circle of friends (we view them more as friends than fans… but that’s besides the point) How is that wrong? Tell me, and I’ll listen (but not necessarily believe you)

Aug 23rd, 2008
I Have Clones

I thought this debate was dead and buried but it appears my uncannily named friend has resurrected it.

Frankly, I think you’d be hard pressed to disagree with anything that’s been said - unless of course like Atul Rana you believe we shall all burn in hell.. ?!

I think a key point is taking the relationship beyond myspace and ‘owning’ it yourself - but I’m really glad to see someone who can advocate the Friend Adding benefits alongside myself.

Good idea about using the venue myspace - I may have to give that a try myself!

Aug 26th, 2008
FQV

you should not.

Sep 17th, 2008