Is ‘pay to play’ ever a good idea?

May 19, 2008

Is ‘pay to play’ ever a good idea?

This one’s easy. No, no, no, no, no (yes, occasionally) and no.

By and large, venues, festival organisers and promoters who insist that musicians bring a certain number of ticket-buying punters to their gigs should pretty much have their licences revoked in my book.

The argument goes something like this: playing at our venue / performing as part of our festival / taking part in our Battle of the Bands competition will be good for your profile - and you may even get a record deal out of it. Or something.

Promoters know it’s shonky, which is why they often go to some lengths to make it something of a secret that this even goes on. One recent local example is the rather shambolic PR disaster that is the Surface Unsigned festival.

The story goes that the ‘festival’ (actually a sort of multi-layered, episodic battle of the bands) requires that artists bring 25 paying guests at Ã‚Â£6 a head (that’s twelve of your American dollars) to see them perform for 20 minutes.

Apparently, you can still play if you only contribute (let’s say) Ã‚Â£144 through your network of contacts, rather than the requisite Ã‚Â£150 - but you won’t make a cent and you can’t progress to the next round, even if you’re the best on the night.

How do I know about this? Because the festival organisers have scored something of a public relations own goal in doing this.

Surface Unsigned have sent a pseudo-legal letter of threatening intent to local creative industries blog Created In Birmingham for ‘breach of copyright’. Happens to every good blogger sooner or later.

In a mostly positive review, Created In Birmingham reprinted a clause out of the terms and conditions of the festival that outlined the pay-for-play clause and Surface Unsigned declared that to be their intellectual property. Seems like there’s a confidentiality clause in the mix there somewhere too.

Created In Birmingham have gone on to reword the clause in LOLspeak to address the issue of copyright (clearly not what this is actually about). And Surface Unsigned are getting a fair bit of negative publicity as a result, in which this particular post is a willing participant, because I don’t happen to believe that a) charging bands to play is fair game for this sort of thing; and b) threatening blogs with spurious takedown notices is the way you conduct yourself on the internet these days.

Give your music away - don’t pay to play
The point of the story is that unlike giving your recordings away for free on the internet (almost always a good idea), actually putting yourself in a position where you may end up paying money to perform to a crowd that you’ve brought to a venue is a nonsensical proposition.

So how do promoters get away with it? Bands let them. One of the reasons this is still even remotely accepted practice is that in order to compete or just get a gig, many artists feel they have to toe the party line and play the game in the terms that have been laid out by what they consider to be ‘the music industry’.

Having said that…
A good argument could be put that venue owners have a great deal to contend with. Bands are often more trouble than they’re worth. They cost more than they earn. Bands need a place to play, and often a start like this is the leg-up they need. If they can get a crowd along, then letting the bands use your venue as a place to get a start could be seen as an act of charity.

Perhaps insisting that artists do their own marketing and get their own crowd is a valuable motivating factor that will spell the difference between their eventual success and likely obscurity.

There are also very good arguments in favour of artists contributing to appear at large showcases or covering their costs to appear at media events. I would be surprised, for instance, if chipping in to appear at PopKomm, SXSW or Midem ever turned out to be a waste of money.

There’s certainly a debate to be had here. I’m pretty sure I know what side I come down on it and it’s that generally speaking, plans to charge bands in order to play live are pretty much exploitative.

I twittered the question earlier today, and people had pretty strong feelings about it. What do you think?

By way of disclaimer, it’s worth making clear that this post was inspired by the Created In Birmingham takedown notice, which is clearly ridiculous. Linking the words Surface Unsigned to the CIB post rather than their own website is my statement of support for the CIB team, who have done no wrong and do not deserve to be bullied by people who are (in my humble opinion) acting in an exploitative manner towards musicians.

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27 Comments, Comment or Ping

Paul

wow, it’s sad that musicians fall in this trap… in my mind paying to play is a lot like paying to work… Would the following statement in the classified section of your local paper make sence to anyone: “Company now hiring web developers 30k/year… only a $200 application fee” I would laugh at this statement in the classified ads and yet as a musician… this somehow would “make more sence” if it were a way to promote my band in a music magazine or if i came across it on the web Now i do agree with you Dubber that there are RARE occasions that this is worth it… but they are few and far between.

The couple of “pay to perform” showcases i took part in years ago, usually turned out to be disasters where then band that sounded most like what was on the radio won and the other bands that were “edgier” got little or no recoginition. But i suppose this is something i had to learn by experiencing… and now i know

May 19th, 2008
GigDoggy

Well pay to play can be acceptable if the festival or organizations is a very respected entity, and that by doing so you give your band a real chance to promote itself. Of what i have read (from your post and from createdinbirmingham.com), the surface unsigned festival prepared its 2008 business model very neatly. But for such an event, its crucial for them to limit their band entries. They simply can’t accept everyone.
Now i agree their way of operating is a tad sketchy but i would tend to think that bringing in 25 fans at 6pounds a head is motivating for most bands. This is a battle of the bands (yes i also find sketchy the concept of such a event), this isnt a concert. well for the public it is but for the bands its a competition. People pay to enter competitions, and in this case, its simply the fans who pay.

mruff

GigDoggy

May 19th, 2008
Daley

I agree with you on your comment Paul. As for the “paying to work” part, I think that to be worth your time, it mostly depends on the venue or promoters. Many of my “pay to play” experiences have only been bearable when we’re treated with at least a shred of dignity or respect. I can’t count the times we were pushed back 3 or 4 hours so the bands who payed more could play earlier in the night or were given a longer set time when we were told we would be on 2nd or 3rd. The less money you give them, the more they ignore you and push you aside, even if you have the best performance or happen to be well know in the area. It’s a shame, but there ARE good and decent companies out there willing to help the lesser known artists. It takes searching, and experience with other promotion companies to find them.

May 19th, 2008
GigDoggy

Hey guys,
Has it ever helped boost your career as musicians paying to play at venues? I mean we do it for the sole purpose of performing in a bigger place for a larger public. In your experiences was the ‘fee’ woth it?

Thanks

May 19th, 2008
Julian Moore

Unfortunately pay to play in the UK has become almost standard for mid-sized venues

The usual crap is ‘You need to bring at least x amount of people before I will pay you x amount from every ticket’

Meaning that if it’s 5 pounds in and you get 2 pounds from every ticket but ONLY if 30 people come, then if you only get 29 in you get nothing.

Most promoters still invite you back if they liked what you are doing but didn’t get the numbers in

It still sucks though and can turn a break even event into a seriously out of pocket event, especially if you have van hire / petrol etc to pay for

Do one of these a week and you’re screwed

On the pro circuit you’ve got buy-ons for support acts to contend with - pay-to-support is now pretty standard for certain types of acts and it’s not unusual for a label/band/managment company to splash out Ã‚Â£60k on a support slot nowadays - highest bidder wins

However, there are some great live promoters out there who don’t do this stuff and instead foster relationships with the bands they actually like - good luck finding them though, there’s a lot of trial and error involved

May 19th, 2008
Woody

In my opinion it depends on what you are paying for. Every band should have some kind of promotions budget, right? And you can choose to spend that budget how you see fit. An ad in a local music mag, a banner on a web site, flyers, postcards, or maybe even a live performance. For me it’d be a business decision. “If I pay x for this promotion what can I expect in return?” Am I getting value for money or am I getting exploited for someone else gain? Even paying to play at SXSW could be a bad investment if there is no chance of a tangible return.

May 20th, 2008
Milton

I think that bands might take a few ideas from the old “Rave” promoter / DJ handbook (un-official of course!) and consider throwing your own events.

I am not sure how it is done these days but back in the mid to late 90’s and into the early 2k’s it was fairly easy to organize an event as a DJ or electronic musician with determination.

You get some like minds together, come up with a plan: Find a space for rent, rent a sound rig, book some bands or get together a collective of friends and bands that could help pull it off…Like one band has some sound gear to combine with another’s to make a decent full rig.

Think of it as an investment and all contributers get a return at the end of the night.

Here in America a great many of the “Raves” we threw were organized by a group of local DJ’s that wanted to play out…So they would pool their resources (sometimes, often, finding investors), book a couple of “Big Name” DJ’s to headline and draw the crowds, while the 4 or 5 DJ’s who threw the gig played the first few opening sets and possibly the last closing sets too.

More often than not the organizers turned a hefty profit. I don’t know if this would translate to the traditional “Live Band” environment or even if it has been tried already.

I would love to hear anyone’s thoughts on this idea.

May 20th, 2008
Matt @ Kurb NZ

I’m inspired by what you describe Milton just as many of the old boys round here love their vintage analogue gear and gatefold vinyls. But I lost a whole lot more money booking DJ’s than even when I was running a label. I wouldn’t advise either.

I would advise others who havent to check out

http://www.audiblehype.com

and reflect on the series of discussions entitled

“is touring really necessary in 2008?”

touring/gigging in general, same diff

Look sorry, I gotta play devil’s advocate because I’m in business and sometimes I suspect there’s too many punks and hippies and other assorted bohemian “struggling” artists and ivory tower dwellers round here.

This may reek of hard bitten cynicism but there are just way, way too many people who probably watched too much MTV in the 90’s and think they deserve to be rock stars too and in business thats what we refer to as “a gap in the market”.

May 20th, 2008
Vinc'

To be fair, it’s not only happening with indie bands.

When you think about it, it’s exactly what the record companies do:
- they pay to have their bands on special events (a band I played with had his label pay 50k or so to be at the popkomm festival)
- they pay to get radio exposure
- they pay to be on the stores’ shelves.

It’s sad but it all comes down to ROI.

If it’s worth it, you gotta do it.

However, the smaller you are, the better chances it’s not going to do anything for your career, especially if it’s not part of a bigger plan and it’s a one-shot thing (think like a lottery ticket)

May 20th, 2008
Abi

I have never paid to play and I never intend to unless there is a VERY good reason. Venues have live music on to encourage people a) into the venue and b) to stay longer and buy more drinks. If they wanted to employ a painter and decorator for the same reasons, they would never pull scams like that. It’s bad enough that everyone gets paid but the band virtually all the time. Bands should make an effort to get the fans there, but if they are the only ones doing so then they should get the lions share of the ticket money. If I had my rock band time again, I would definitely try to put on my own gigs. I’ve heard you can get a one-off entertainment licence for about Ã‚Â£26

May 20th, 2008
Milton

@Matt

I also know a lot of people who lost their ass, shirt, etc. etc. $$$ trying to organize events…But I don’t think that means such events can’t work (towards exposure and profit), it just means that not just anybody can pull that kind of thing off.

You have to have some sense about it and be strategic in planning it…don’t just book a “Big Name” / Headline DJ or Band because you like them…book them because you have seen demand for them in your area…And in turn that demand will get you a decent crowd that can be introduced to what you do (when you open for the headliner).

You also can’t over estimate the crowd turnout, you always shoot low on that and budget accordingly. For me it was always figuring out the break even or loose less than 5% on the investment that made me decide whether to move forward with an event plan or not.

True DIY can work.

Too many folks “think” they know what will happen if “this” or “that” works and a lot of times their judgment is clouded by pipe dreams of what they “want” to happen.

I really do believe if you plan well and stay practical you can establish some exposure for your music/art/event, etc. etc.

But you should never go into it thinking you are going to get rich…That is bad Karma just waiting to come down on you.

May 20th, 2008
Nithya

This is a pretty interesting discussion. I feel there are way too many bands these days that make average music or the kinds that doesnt appeal to many. In such cases, the organizer cant do much but have an arrangement like this. But this very much depends on the intention of the organizer. If his sole idea is to make money off ambitious bands, I would hate it. If it was done as an attempt to give everybody a feel of performing live, its good.

In Bangalore, one of the music schools had done a great job by procuring sponsorship for almost 5 yrs from Levis for monthly gigs. Brands like these that want to be associated with the youth are more than willing to have their banners and sponsor the place and the sound equipments for such events.

May 20th, 2008
David Hooper

Pay to play is a great idea, if you’re able to get ROI. Money is a great filter and keeps those who aren’t serious about the music BUSINESS away.

If you know the metrics and what you’ll get back, you’ll make money every time.

With a lot of these deals, bands are paying to advertise. It happens in every other industry, so why do people get their panties in a wad when it comes to this one?

Not saying that you should pay for everything. Like anything, some things aren’t worth paying for. But if the opportunity works for you and you can get something back for it, why not?

May 21st, 2008
Milton

“Why not?”

Well I can see paying for an engineer to mix your bands songs. I can see paying a PR team to get you the paying gigs and promote you…paying for that kind of marketing makes sense to me…But to pay a venue to play says to me that your band might not be up to snuff.

As a former club owner and party promoter I can’t remember even considering the idea of an act I asked to perform of paying me to play at my venue.

On the contrary I remember a few times where the bands came after me for their rightly earned bookings money even if there was not enough crowd turn-out for me to make a profit!

I suppose if an act solicited itself to me at that time I may have set up a door split kind of thing but I would never ask an act for upfront money to perform.

As mentioned in a comment above: Why should the painters, construction workers and general employees be guaranteed pay and the employee known as the entertainment not?

If you make good music you should get paid…if you don’t make good enough music to get a gig that way then you most likely need to get back to the garage and polish your band up to snuff.

It is eerily similar to all those god awful ads you see in the classifieds telling you that if you spend some money with this or that company you can own your own business in a matter of months…If it sounds to good to be true then it’s most likely a lie / scam / con.

Bottom line is to get your music in order, make it tight and it will have value and you won’t need to be paying anyone for exposure outside of your manager or PR firm.

And on the idea that:

“if the opportunity works for you and you can get something back for it”

I refer back to the DIY / throw your own events concept I mentioned above. If you are going to be shelling out $$$ it should be on your terms and at your well thought out risk…not some company trying to make a buck off your hard work. After all if you put it together yourself it really is Your hard work that will pay off.

**disclaimer: I think it wise to mention that finding a PR team / manager you can trust is no easy task either!

May 21st, 2008
karenhunter

I don’t get in the position of being asked to pay to play. I might do it if there was a huge promo gain to be made ( like making a music video ) but generally ..er….I tend to get paid when I play…..not a hell of a lot at some gigs but there’s a …flow of energy that I ah…. respect which…..erm gets my gear in the car on time…

May 21st, 2008
Steve Purdham

Great post, this is one of the lesser-known, murkier sides of the music industry, so itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s good to see it being opened out for debate.
The problem is that the music industry is a big (an noisy) business, there are a lot of artists willing to try everything to get their music heard. There are always unfair ways for people to make money, often at the artists expense. But I continue to become more optimistic about the future that value can be put back into music where even free actually really means ‘paid for by someone else’ For example our service, We7 is a ad funded digital music site which lets the consumer have music for free but we has paid out a lot of money to new and established bands. I think the performing world needs to make fairer models such as this to allow for bands to be valued for their work.

Steve Purdham, CEO, http://www.we7.com

May 21st, 2008
Terra

By band Allucinere competed last year, and a mates band have this year. Conclusion? Utterly pissed off and annoyed with the whole system. We gained no additional support or fan-base, we ripped off our fans by charging twice the normal amount (we had to bribe a few!), we played for less time, in front of less people, and got nothing for it. Nothing. Nadda.

Surface Unsigned is one of the worst things I’ve ever experienced as a musician.

May 21st, 2008
DaniellePotion13

For a band that just starting…It can be a cheap way to play in a big venue and have nice pictures to put in your “porte-folio”. But it sucks to be exploited this way, I agree…musicians deserve better. And contest are kind of unfair too.

May 22nd, 2008
Deano

Hi there we are running the Exposure Music Awards! and weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re trying to do it right.

It is tough trying to run these things without any kind of fee or contribution to running the event and filling the venue, from the bands (there has to be cooperation).

BUT pay-to-play is not the answer under any guise, Cheers, Deano, Exposure xxx

May 22nd, 2008
Atul Rana

Emergenza music festival - Requires the band to pay Ã‚Â£50 upfront to even ENTER the festival…

then….

They ask for fans to sell tickets at Ã‚Â£7 a head on a mid week slot that can even be a 11.30pm slot.

Not good, but guess what, loads of bands *still* enter, including my own band that I entered. I will never do it again though.

May 27th, 2008
Si Waite

We are in the Surface Unsigned Festival.

It is yet another sad story of something with great potential promising little.

Having done our utmost to get our fans to Manchester on a weeknight, we felt really let down by the promoter and the venue.

We had to travel up to Manchester for a meeting to book the first round when it could have been done on the phone. We were shut out of the venue on the day for 2 hours with no contact from the promoter. The sound man was late and when he did turn up he was below par. We asked for a soundcheck and didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get one. 4 of the 7 bands didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even turn up. The promoters didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t bother to communicate with us that there would be less bands playing which meant we could play for longer and so sell the gig better to our fans. We felt really bad about charging people Ã‚Â£6 to see just 3 bands play 30mins each. There was no visible promotion for the event in the venue. And the other bands that did play were shite. They also leave the organization on the night to complete amateurs.

There was meant to be 2 rounds followed by a regional Ã¢â‚¬ÂfinalÃ¢â‚¬Â at the Manchester Academy. Apparently there is now a 3rd round!

On the plus side the kit they had was good and showed the event had good sponsorship, and we didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have to sell 25 tickets to get through to the next round after all. (But they didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t tell us this before the gig!). They also do a good voting system where the bands have a vote.

We are going to the Dry Bar on the 4th June. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not going out of my way to sell the required number of tickets, though I will promote it like any other gig.

I think that selling tickets to play is fine. However, I think the Sugarmill in Stoke have got it right. They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t specify the number of tickets you sell, they just make it clear that they expect you to get people in the venue or you will struggle to get another gig. They then give you a fair cut of the ticket price.

In a nutshell, I reckon pay to play is OK as long as promoters do their job and promote the event as well as the bands. Otherwise itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just exploitation.

Rant over

Si
Captain Yange

May 29th, 2008
Universal Indie Records

You rock guys are lucky… this almost standard fare for hip hop artists. Crooked promoters give wanna be superstars to sell 15 tickets at $15 - $20 in advance in order for them to be able to perform at “industry” functions.

In this age where everyone with a Myspace page and Fruity Loops can live out their living large rapper dreams, the only ones making money are the promoters, mixtape dj’s and anyone else who can charge these guys a fee for a service.

May 29th, 2008
Atul Rana

Hi Si,

I completely completely understand where you are coming from. My band DonkeyBox gigs regularly at The Dry Bar, The Dry Bar in London has got it right, there is no need to bring own backline and he only asks for 4 people as audience minimum which is easily achievable.

We were in the Emergenza festival and that was pretty much like the experience you had with Surface Unsigned. After the first round we were wildcarded to the next round (having sold only 4 tickets for Ã‚Â£7 each). We then did the ultimate marketing exercise and got 41 people out on a Monday night for Ã‚Â£7 per ticket.

The promoter was only really concerned with how many tickets we were selling, he wasn’t giving any real feedback on the music as such. Though to be fair he did give us some practical tips on marketing the band and it’s music. To be fair the best best tips I really have got are from Andrew Dubber here and Derek Sivers.

Long story short, Emergenza then pissed on us by changing our slot last minute without telling us to 11.30pm on a weekday night (which I am sure is illegal…) and treated us like sh*t towards the end.

The net result, we pulled out of Emergenza and I’ve learnt my lesson, *never* *never* to play a BoB type of gig.

These promoters commit the ultimate sin of selling bands a dream, the one that every band craves and the exploiting the bands for all they’ve got. These guys don’t love new music, they are in it for the money, sad really….

Jun 3rd, 2008
Mr Frustrated

This whole page is very informative and should be a constant blog around websites like Myspace.
I’ve been playing live around 18 years and in that time i cannot believe how badly the live circuit(s) have deteriorated.
Promoters have some serious control over the whole situation for several reasons..
Firstly live music venues have dwindled down due to changing trends, the pub circuit and working mens club circuit has suffered the same also with other issues causing discontent to the punters like; bar prices and the smoking ban.
Its becomming more difficult to find decent venues let alone make some kind of a living out of it.
So bands get desperate, its a no brainer for the scumbag promoters, in fact why did’nt i think of it? (joke)

Pay to play is a joke. Would a Plumber pay you so he could fix your boiler? Whether you are in the entertainments industry or Construction you still spend years on perfecting your craft, spend thousands of pounds on equipment, travel distances to work/perform.
There was also a time when you travelled to new places to win over new fans and audiences. Why drag all your friends down to London at £5 a head when they can watch you live at the local for free?

So the dilemma is this; Do your band take a risk to expand your audience by trusting promoters in other cities or do we play the local pub circuit which is pityfull, for the next 10 years to stay in pocket?
Like i said, its difficult and no wonder these promoters are doing well.
As for myself i’m only interested in venues that pull ‘walkabouts’ in, the rest is a waste of time. Shame.

Aug 10th, 2008